JXQ-10 Forum Ramblings

Last Revised: July 12, 2013
Earliest Post: June, 2011


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Introduction:

Here are emails between me, Pete Stanaitis, www.spaco.org and others who are interested in or are currently working with the Tian-Tian JXQ-10 Gasifier system. These discussions also relate to the Stak Properties 10K system.
A few of the "members' are building their own gasifiers, but do want to be kept in the loop.

July 12, 2013:
For whatever reason, very few of the "members" here have been communicating with me since the first of the year, 2013. I'm not sure why this is so.
There was lots of activity during the last half of 2011. that you see below.
Correspondence continued up through about January of 2012, but I have not taken the time to add it here, yet.
It seems as though several of the members DO respond when I run a test and report to the group about it.
If you are one of the "members" or would like to become one, please email me at: Pete's email and I will get back to you shortly.

To summarize all of this input through Decmeber 13, 2011:
Several people are testing their gasifiers for use as a fuel source to run a gasoline engine.
Several of these people have had some success, but they are all still in the process of working toward a stable, tar-free gas supply.
Engines being used range from about 4hp to about 16 hp.
Maximum electrical power output seems to be in the 2 to 4 KWhr range.
The longest contiguous run recorded by anyone is about 4 hours with a lightly loaded or unloaded 4hp engine.

If you get tired of reading through all this text, but have a question that needs answering, feel free to contact me at:
spaco@baldwin-telecom.net (or click the "Contact" button, above) and I will sort through the original emails to address your needs if I can.

All the emails in a given section run together. I am sorry about this.
But I just don't have the time (or the ability to automatically) reformat it right now.
I just thought that some of you would be interested in what is being done.

This newest email is the first one, just below this paragraph.
If you want to read from the beginning, go to the BOTTOM of this page and work your way upwards!
I have attempted to sort the emails into groups, headed by the first name of the person who contacted me.
One of these days, I will attempt to clean up all the text so it will be easier to read. Sorry for the mess, but there is quite a bit of good information in here from people who are actually working with these machines.

===========================
Comments by Jim Mason
===========================
Monday, 12/19/2011

pete,
thank you for the interesting report over on your site. i enjoyed it, especially the musings on dolomite for tar cracking. it seems you are getting dolomite to go through the reactor and not slag.
that's interesting and good. at imbert temps you'll get slagging.

considering a separate route, i'm curious if any of you have experimented with a center air tube with spread nozzle at the end.
this might an interesting way to convert the basic open core unit to a nozzle based one. as you know, holding the flame front in one single place at different flow rates is a basic problem of the open core design.
later efforts went to multi level air inject to get such control, but still without a closed top those nozzles don't create much blast and the cross sectional area of the bed is not covered with tar cracking heat.

the center air tube with spreader nozzle would be easier than adding nozzles through the sides of the reactor. you could weld a coupler with threads into the lid, then be able to change downtube heights and different configurations. add some seal on the lid so air can't get around it.

the spread nozzles would be like the "buck rogers" design.

interestingly, one of the main guys who did the buck rogers visited us awhile back and he disabused me of the understanding that these radial pipes were spread nozzles. that's what we've always told ourselves here, but he said they ultimately only used them for agitation. they mostly control flame front height by variable grate and center tube shaking, essentially moving the material through faster or slower to keep the front in the correct place. i was very surprised by this, as i thought the whole point of that assembly was to create the equivalent of a combustion spread lobe to mimic what you get in a throat and nozzle type.

despite what they did in the end, you can do differently. i think it would be interesting to see if you could improve performance with this type of motivated air control.
maybe even try multiple tubes down the side with elbows to direct inward. essentially make the nozzle ring, but fed from the top. you could add a slide in cone taper too to get the imbert type constriction.
jim

========================
Begin Alex
========================
From: Pete & Sheri
To: 'Btekenergy'
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: Possible solution for tar

Wow!
Sounds like you are making real progress.
Can you add a thermocouple in the reactor to help see what's going on in there?
Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Temp-Thermocouple-K-Type-Probe-Terminal-Head-/320800296365?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item4ab1300dad
I got one recently, but haven't had time to install it. I wish the probe was 2 inches longer, but I think it will get far enough into the heat to help analyze the reactor zone.
If you go searching for thermocouples on EBay, you do want the REAL "Type K" thermocouple, also known as Type c/A or Chromel/Alumel.
This type will read with fair accuracy up to about 2500 deegrees F.
Some of the thermocouples being sold by this Chinese vendor are really only for much lower temperatures, for instance up to about 500 degrees F.
I connect the wires to my Extek digital multimeter, which already uses type K thermocouples.
Pottery making supply stores also have hi temp measuring solutions, but be sure that you get a thermocouple that is stainless steel sheathed.
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

From: Btekenergy
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:23 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: Possible solution for tar
Hi Peter,
Should be starting to produce my own pellets in about 2 weeks - for now using store bought - says no added chemicals, binders or fillers. 100% wood.
As for the dolomite - initial testing on the stainless steel pot was almost - unbelievable.
Remember when you told me to boil water? When I did that before using the dolomite, I built up a THICK layer of tar under the pot and it smudged up the sides. Very hard to remove.
With dolomite- after 30 minutes of boiling - literally nothing on the pot to show. And what's funny, what little there was, and I mean just a tanning, came off with soap and water in a second - not that old tar that was impossible to get out.
Just cleaned out my generator, want to start with a clean slate.
Alex.

From: Pete & Sheri
To: 'Btekenergy'
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: Possible solution for tar

Hello, Alex.
Sounds interesting.
One question that came to mind since I haven't seen tar like you have been getting:
What is the binder that is used in the wood pellets that you are currently using? I know you talked about using the hot (heated by compression) lignin itself as a binder, but your vendor could be using binders that contribute to your tar.

We haven't pelletized any wood ourselves, but we have heated with wood for about 25 years, so we have some experience with HOW it burns and how much "stuff" (pyrolignious acid) is in the exhaust.
What species are your wood pellets? Even if the moisture is gone, many resins remain for a longer period of time. I'd say pine would be bad vs. elm or oak, for instance.

We certainly have a lot of dolomite around here.

I think I'd prefer, if I could accomplish it, to spend the extra energy to keep the tar from forming in the first place.
Didn't the GEK folks make that decision?
Anyway, it sure will be interesting to see how it works out. I guess we do have a special case with our JXQ-10's, having the wet filter.
Spent the last few days carrying 2112 pounds of thermal storage bricks and hardware up from one basement and into another,
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

From: Btekenergy
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:20 AM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Possible solution for tar

Hi there,
Well I've been doing a LOT of reading, there are so many papers on BIOMASS and TAR that have yielded some great information and some of that was also on the GEK forum.
DOLOMITE, can REFORM the tars in as low as 500C (low temp reactors) and it looks like Dolomite is the answer.
DOLOMITE, (Canadian Dolomite apparently the best) can reduce tars up to 60% if not more if done correctly.
You MIX it with the feed stock, and it can be reused over and over again - until it's spent. The dolomite reforms the tars in to other structures that are easily broken down. Many European studies have been undertaken and nothing beats the dolomite.
The problem with CRACKING tars at high temperature is that you LOSE lots of energy in the process due to the endothermic reaction that requires more oxygen and therefore the breakdown and utilization of gases before you can utilize the gas. Therefore less energy at the end. So cracking at high temperatures loses power, and you lose the propane and methane trace gases.
With DOLOMITE, temps stay lower, (right in the jxq range) and will only reform the TARS, all other trace gases are left alone, adding caloric value to your gas and more power. NICE.
I have successfully run the generator at 4000 watts continuous load (on a 6500 watt generator) voltage began to drop below 220V over 4000 watts.

Could produce 5000 watts at 200V (too low for UL devices)
Dolomite is better for removing tars then getting the temperature up to 1400, you lose too much energy apparently in the process of getting that temperature.
Apparently 11% dolomite in the feed mix should be adequate - they sell them in pellet form up here. You can reclaim it in the ash bin.
Talk to you soon.
Alex.
-----------------------------------------

From: "Pete & Sheri"
To: "'Btekenergy'"
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: IMG01870.jpg
Hi, Alex.
Interesting.
Did you read the long-winded "1939 Report" on my website? Lots of stuff about what happens to the engine's oil if you are getting tar. I think they changed oil very often. Might be worth thinking about.

Re:" I never get anything down under the grates except ash":
Several of the experts use the term "ash conveyor" to talk about the role that charcoal plays in keeping the grates from plugging. They say that they WANT some charcoal to fall through the grates to carry the melted ash (clinker) off from the grate. If you are not getting clinkers on the grate, your reactor temp might still not be hot enough, and that may be why you gat a lot of tar.

Do you have any ideas about how long the charcoal filter will do its job? Many folks use an automotive air filter as a final filter to trap any tar that does make it past the main filter system. If they see any tar on the filter, they know something is wrong upstream. If tar DOES make it to that filter, it usually clogs up (and becomes useless).

My next plan, if I ever get to it, is to make a final filter from a 5 gallon pail full of shredded wood. I have all the parts, just need the motivation.

I Just got a 27KW heat storage unit for free and have to go and pick it up this weekend. This is what I call a "box of bricks". Electricity heats the bricks to 1700 degrees F, which, if designed correctly, is enough energy to heat a pretty big house for a day or so. My plan is to install it in parallel with my main furnace and power it with my large generator on the day of the week that I send electricity to the grid.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Btekenergy
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 5:56 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Fw: IMG01870.jpg
Hi Pete,
LOL, that's actually funny, no that's the glorious blue sky we had today reflecting of the TAR that is "ABSOLUTELY SLICKER than slick .... well TAR! That's all TAR it's unbelievable - you could use it for your ROOF!1.
I spent the last 2 hours cleaning it all up, needed paint thinner to clean it, I am amazed, at how much tar was removed. I think I found the sweet spot.
It's the fuel too, I keep saying it, because it get the thing right up to temperature and that's the key.
I never get anything down under the grates except ash. Because I use the hardware wire and pellets, it works perfectly that way.
Water level in the purifier effects the quality (and most likely the composition) of the flame.
This gasifier has a procedure that needs to be followed and parameters that need to be kept in check. If done correctly this thing should do the trick.
The DEAL IS YOU MUST RUN GAS AFTER EVERY RUN - This completely cleans out the engine and your're ready for the next run happily knowing you cleaned out your engine with a PREMIUM fuel to keep it clean. Run it for at least 15-20 minutes on gasoline and the carberutor will be clean as new..
The gasifier can can be run for 30 minutes to 20 hours (apprently) only IF you keep the parameters in check, fuel is excellent, air flow is HIGH and OPTIMAL (VERY VERY IMPORTANT - that't the key once this puppy is working correctly, it can remove 80% - 90% + of the tar. I tried the boiling pot when I had the unit running "incorrectly" and the pot was blackened terribly with tar. With the system working PROPERLY there was only a TANNING of the metal but you could NOT smear ANY thing off it!
That's amazing. I attribute that to the HIGH temps I'm getting by throwing that variable switch out the window and using that hardware cloth charcoal filter I made with my own pellet charcoal I'll take a photo after I pick the children up from their friend's home in 30 minutes.
Go to go, should maybe call you later.
Alex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, Alex.
You have put many more hours at a time on your machine than I have. I haven't seen any "goo" that thick. When you say "purifier", I assume you mean the filter box.
When I drain my filter water, it does look pretty black and also has a "slick" of blacker stuff that floats, but it is just another watery layer, not the glop that you show. Is that stuff actually blue, as it looks in the picture?
By the way, I think you asked at one time what to do with that "filter water". Maybe it was someone else. Anyway, I am thinking of evaporating it. The residue could be then burned or sent out with the garbage collector. I don't think I'd want to burn it in the gasifier, though.
We need to talk more about reusing the charcoal that comes down out of the grates into the bottom of the gasifier. I think it contains a LOT of ash and therefore should not be put back through the reactor. This is the stuff people are talking about using as a "soil amendment". There is more to say on this subject.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Bonello
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:59 PM
To: spaco
Subject: IMG01870.jpg
Ever get this out of the purifier?
Tar in Filter Water
Let me know please.
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Pete,
Wow what a day I had, and I took a lot from our conversations and I believe have some great news. As you know, the first time I tried to run the mower, I used a variable speed on the blower motor - BIG NO NO.
That blower motor has to be running at MAX to produce the temperatures required - I was running way too cold, and this meant lots of tar.

Next thing I did was cleared out that filter area - and I made myself my own filter, made from hardware cloth, paper towel and crushed activated carbon MADE By the gasifier. I made 5 layers of bottom wire, then paper towel, then crushed active charcoal and then paper towel again, top it off with wire mesh and then placed larger briquettes flat, then mesh, then another layer of briquettes to about 6 inches from the top.

The final VERY important item was the level of the purifier water. As you stated it does bob up and down.
I have noticed that the water level actually affects the quality of the flame. As you know water is produced, but what I didn't realize, is that if you have a good cooling system as I do, the water condenses IN the unit and will actually raise the water level in the purifier to the point where you can have TOO much water, and this could affect the flow of gas. This happened, I had to drain water to bring the level back.

Another point, I made a T where the gases could bypass the motor, allowing the motor to use what it needs, and the rest vent away - as opposed to trying to adjust the blower to produce a little gas only for the mower - this screwed up everything and created LOTS of tar. Not anymore!
I don;t know if you have ever seen this, but I started producing tar slicks from the water purifier, and the gas was impressively cleaner.
The first time, I ran the motor for 4 hours, the tar buildup was almost impossible for me to start the thing.
Today after all these changed I took the girl on a 60llb pellet bag run - motor ran for 2 hours 55 minutes (but remember I am venting the gas I am not using - about 50 % if not more not being used) I checked the spark plug it was clean, and to boot, the the mower started FIRST PULL with gas in the tank.
I never ran the blower for as long as I did today as full power - not only did I produce really clean gas, it didn't gum up the motor, and the hot coolant was perfect for heating in an in ground or radiant floor setup for a work shop.
One thing I want to ask you, have you ever seen those big blobs of black tar come out of the purifier? I mean like the blackest tar you can find. Does not mix with water, stayed separate on a paper towel it was like the blackest oil you've ever seen - but it's tar - lots of it - the purifier even worked perfectly. AND I noticed that at the proper level the blower sound was steady and gasifier just worked great.

This thing is starting to make sense to me, and the important thing is NEVER restrict the flow, bleed the gas off somewhere, but always make sure the blower is at max - this ensures clean gas.
This was very reassuring, first time round the motor looked like it was all gummed up and I couldn't start it until I poured gas down the carb and needed quick start, after today's run - it started first pull. - I'm in awe.

Alex
-----------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete & Sheri
Hello to all you JXQ10 and Stak 10K users.
All of you have contacted me at one time or another with questions or about your own experiences with your "Chinese Gasifier".
I don't know if there should be an active forum for these machines or not.
But here I am giving you all the opportunity to keep in correspondence with me or with each as the need arises.
Here below, I am copying 2 documents that I think are important for all of us to read, and to understand as we attempt to improve the operation of our machines.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodgas Flare:
A blue flare only happens during cold air AND/OR rotting wood, both contribute to a higher methane (CH4) component in the gas.
Violet with light yellow wisps in the tips is considered a high H2 (Hydrogen) component.
Red is tar, plain and simple.
You might have violet, BUT it's being masked by the red, only way to find out is if you can measure the core temp, near the hearth (just above it) 800c (1470f) is considered Ideal, higher up, in the core, 1100c (2000f)is common, if your temperatures are lower than that, that would explain the tar-red.
Greg Manning,
Canadian Gasifier Ltd.
Building Hi-Performance Gasifiers, Since 2001
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring Pressure Drop Across the Reactor:
We've found the manometer to be the most important gauge on a gasifier. the manometer is set up to measure pressure drop across the reactor. we use this to know how hard we are pulling the reactor and keep it in the no tar zone.
i propose this can be the equivalent of a speedometer for a gasifier. it is very easy to use.
here's the summary numbers you want to see, in inches of h2o.
12+: Overpull
10: Maximum
8: OK
6: Good
5: Ideal
4: Good
2: OK
1: Minimum
0-1: Underpull

These numbers are taken from the larger instruction set on How to Operate a Downdraft Gasifier (GEKgasifier.com). this is our attempt to come up with an easy "speedometer and tachometer" for a gasifier. no complicated science. just driving gauges.
the full instructions are here:
http://gekgasifier.pbworks.com/The-Masonic-Method%3A-How-to-Operate-a-Downd= raft-Gasifier
The excerpted part on using the manometer is here:
-------------------------------------
Your Gasifier Speedometer
(aka: the manometer)
The most helpful gauge for informed gasifier driving is a manometer measuring the pressure drop across the reactor. The pressure drop across the reactor tells you to an approximation how fast you are pulling the reactor-- or in other words, how much gas you are making.

For good results, you need to pull gas between the min and max gas rate acceptable for the gasifier hearth dimensions. Pulling too fast or too slow will create problems.

-Pull too slow and you'll make a mess of tar.
-Pull too fast and you'll make soot, weak gas, and ultimately clinkers.
This min and max gas rate band is fairly narrow, thus the need for an experienced operator to find it. Fortunately we can quantify this "good band" and have the =93newbie=94 read a gauge to approximate "expertise".

Our tests have shown the min-max pull rate band as 2" to 10" of h2o vac across the reactor (before filtering). Stay within these limits and you'll have good results. For even better results, try to stay in the sweet spot,, which we consistently find to be 4-6"h2o vac range. You can push things up to about 12" and idle down to about 1", but you are tempting trouble at these extremes.

Here's these "speedometer" manometer numbers as a chart. You might want to print these out and keep them with your gasifier.
12+: Overpull
10: Maximum
8: OK
6: Good
5: Ideal
4: Good
2: OK
1: Minimum
0-1: Underpull

These values can be read manually via a simple manometer, or we can use the same values to inform idiot lights and electronic automation. In all these cases, the critical new learning here is that we can formalize the min-max rate, and make informed operating decisions in relation. We do not need to guess, nor do we need to rely on years spent face down in the black goo.
These numbers assume a well configured gasifier with reasonable hearth geometry and nozzle sizing. We can get close to reasonable dimensions using the standard Imbert charts. For further refinement of these dimensions and configurations, see the tuning section below.
Yes, different gasifier types, sizes and fuels will introduce some variations in this scale, but they are less than one would fear. Also, these variations can be quantified with the same formal system, and thus compared between machines. Refinements and addenda are expected to the above guidelines as others use it.
here's my proposed numbers for what you should see.
-Jim Mason, Allpowerlabs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you are all still testing and learning. It would be great to hear from those of you that I have (almost) lost contact with.
Pete Stanaitis
http://www.spaco.org/JXQ10A.htm
------------------------

===============================
Tom Diesel
===============================
Hi Pete
Sorry I have lost touch. I'm in the prosess of retiring or semi retiring Well I went from working 6 days a week to 7. So it's not working out to good so far but i think i am getting things under control.
I had to put the testing on hold for a while,I did however get some good results with the small throat 2.5" I made a stainless bowl chamber and and air tube thru the center about 3-4 " above the grate. I also put a shaker on top of the grate It seemed to yeild a lot better results I still get tar in the water but not nearly as bad it will run the genarator at 2000 w load for 3 hrs unatended but after thet you have to shake the grate and add fuel it's not like putting fuel in a genarator but in a pinch it works pretty well.
I will send more pics and details of what i did the first part of december
See Ya Tom (Diesel)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================
Alex
=========================
Hi Peter,
BTW the mower is still running, I filled the hopper and it's been running for nearly 2 hours straight. I ran a long 100 foot hose and it's cold here about 0C (32 F) so the return antifreeze/water is coming back really cold. Gases going out are maybe in the 36-40F range very cold.
I'm totally amazed, and I cut some grass with the mower and it was fairly long, I'll show you tomorrow when there is light.
It's working - and there's LOTs of power.
Alex.
----------------------------------------
Glad you have it running, but it is still at no load, correct?
How much horsepower do you think that 4 hp engine is using just to run itself? A general rule of thumb for two cylinder Onan generator sets is that they consume 25% of their full load fuel just to move all the engine parts.
That might relate to what you are doing right now.
I am glad that you are working toward power generation. In the meantime, I still encourage you to boil some water and take some data.
My Onan 16 hp engine won't run with the blower on. The blower blades get in the way and don't allow enough suction.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

From: Btekenergy
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:19 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: Your JXQ-10
Been running straight for 1 hour.
4 HP Toro with variable speed on the blower motor and a valve controlling the amount going in.
Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete & Sheri
To: 'Btekenergy'
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Your JXQ-10
Hello again, Alex.
The pellets in the pictures on your website look like wood pellets, not straw/hay pellets. Straw/hay pellets have a lot more ash than do wood pellets. Do you get the same results either way?
I agree with using a constant stream of colder water to get better quality gas. In my video from a couple of months ago, I wanted to try not using running water because the Chinese instructions seemed ambiguous as to whether or not you NEED cold water. Answer, as you have pointed out: yes, you do.
As far as fuel, let's remember that the original design was based upon using rice straw, cut into 1" long pieces, and. small twigs, etc..
I am glad you figure the gasifier will run a "small 4 cylinder engine", but what data do you base your calculations upon?
Over the last couple of years since I got my JXQ-10 I have been in contact with many owners who have tried to run engines, but not one of them, including myself, have ever run any kind of engine for any period of time, successfully. I'm not saying it can't be done, but NO ONE has fed back any more than anecdotal info saying they got it to run for a short period, once or twice. To the best of my knowledge, my 3.9KW run of 12 minutes is tops.
Please don't misunderstand me, but a tall flame does not a high btu content make. It simply says that there isn't enough oxygen getting to the burner. I am really looking forward to you success with and engine under load for an extended period of time so I can emulate process.
This year was so full of maintenance issues here on our country place that I had to put my own woodgas testing plans on hold. I have, however continued to gather equipment for my larger system.
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

From: Btekenergy
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:23 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: Your JXQ-10
Hi Pete,
The reason why I use the pellets is because you can use hay or straw pellets you make yourself at home with a pelletizer. You use the material you have and run it through a hammer mill/pellet mill then you the AMAZING results I am talking to you about.
I HAD the same problem as in the photos with the paint coming off, that's because you are using the wrong fuel.
I repainted mine and now the paint does not come off at all. AND if you run a constant stream of COLD water through the system, you get almost ZERO water in the fuel coming out AND the pipe coming out of the unit feels COLD to the touch. THAT'S when you get the most AMAZING GAS.
When I used wood chips it took forever to get good gas and lots of water and just not a strong gas. When I used pellets, and chicken wire on the grate at the bottom, the ash went through perfectly and the results were AMAZING.
It's ALL about the fuel - been going now a couple of days and I have this thing down. Change the filter water daily as well keeps the quality of the flame nice and BLUE.
Amazing machine, I figure I can produce enough gas with the one machine to run a small 4 cylinder engine. That's how much gas I'm making.
On the stove the flames are 3 feet high each, if one is on 5 feet easy.
Are you not getting this much gas?
I will send some photos tonight when it gets dark and you can see the flame.
Alex
-----------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete & Sheri
To: info@btekenergy.com
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:06 PM
Subject: Your JXQ-10
Hello, Alex.
You wrote:
Hi, I purchased the same gasifer, got it working the 2nd time. You need to use pellets and the cooling system and the thing works amazing. Two HUGE flames on that stove they provide. Really like it a lot. Need to get a filtration system so I can run a generator.::::Take care, email me if you like.::::Alex::
Pete's Reply:
Glad you got it going.
I don't want to have to use fuel that I have to buy, so I will have to run mine on either wood chips of wood chunks.
Good that you have "huge flames". But you need to get some idea of how much actual power (in btus, etc) you can get reliably before you choose an engine/ generator. One way to do this would be to boil water on the burners.
I'm sure you can figure out the btu conversions to get some approximate data.
I'm guessing (I should KNOW, shouldn't I) that an average home gas stove burner yields about 15,000 btus so if that's correct, 2 burners should yield about 30,000 btus. I think that's enough power to run about a 5hp engine, delivering maybe about 3 kw of electric power, no more.
Anyway, to see how much heat you can really get from the burners:
It takes one btu to heat one pound of water one degree F. So, if you had 2 large kettles, holding 2 gallons each, you'd be heating 4 gallons, or about 4 X 8 = 32 pounds of water, right?
Let's say the water temp is about 60 degrees F to start, and that water boils at 212 degrees F on the day you do the test. That's a temp difference of about 212 - 60 = 152 degrees. So, it will take 152 X 32 = 4864 btus to raise the temp of the kettles just to the point where they are going to boil (212 or a few degrees below). If indeed, the burners and the gasifier can do this in 6.2 minutes, you have about 30,000 btu output. Now these figures may be off a little because of heat radiated to the air, but that should give you a general idea of the amount of real work you can do with your gasifier.

Let me know if I have made any mistakes with the calc's above and let me know how much power you can put into heating water.
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

=================================
Begin, Dave, who has a STAK 10K
=================================
Hi, Dave.
Yes, I accounted for the 4-stroke volume requirements in my figures.
All my fuels are 16% or 'way below that. It's a balancing act in that range, though, since, if you DO have the temperature, you dissociate the water which gets you more CO from the oxygen and H2 in the gas stream. That's why knowing the reactor temp and being able to do something about it is so important. And yes, I have heard that "Less than 20% rule many times.
Regarding your comment about letting the fuel run low enough ----:
Sounds like a good idea to me, but I did see a couple of JXQ-10 pix somewhere where they showed a shot down into the fuel hopper and you could see the red coals and some flame. Maybe that was just Chinese marketing.
Have you visited the http://gekgasifier.com website? They have lots of useful info. Of course thieir stuff in a lot more expensive, but they have lots of data on extended runs, etc..
Do we know yet if the dealer has any personal experience running engines on woodgas?
The dealer blog sounds like a great idea.
Pete Stanaitis
------------------

From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:41 AM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
Pete,
I am told that STAK sells the reactor and generator as a complete system. I will find out if we can get some pictures and diagrams as well as a video of the complete powerplant. Are you running a 4-stroke? if so, the intake volume is required on only every other stroke. Maybe your calculations are off by a factor of two?
I also know that the fuel chip form and quality makes a hugh difference on the syngas yield. The cracking temp is the key to the process.
Any amount of moisture will quench the reaction. Should be less than 20% moisture. Have you verified that? Also never let the supply fuel run low enough to see burning embers on top of the pile, I am told.
I will get back to you with more as I get it. The dealer is going to post a blog for user feedback and input. It is possable that we are trying to re-invent the wheel here. I would guess that we both have the same gasifier configuration.
Dave

From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
To: "'Dave'"
Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 10:47 PM
Hi, Dave.
I'm not the one who asked about running the engine without the gasifier's blower turned on.
In my experience, I can't get enough gas to my Onan with a load on it UNLESS the blower is running. That blower isn't going to "force feed" an engine with 30 or more cubic inches displacement running at 1800 to 3600 rpms. The problem I see is just the opposite. You need to measure the pressure drop across the gasifier system. If the total drop exceeds about 4 inches WC, you will be choking the engine without the blower on. My gasifer needs help to move enough gas for two reasons.
One: to keep the reactor temp up.
Two: to supply enough gas.
So far, on my system, that 16hp engine can't suck hard enough unless the blower is running. I don't get the feeling that your dealer is talking from personal experience. Am I wrong?

My generator has a displacement of 61 cu. Inches.
I figure that it needs a total gas+air intake of about 3/4 cu meter of gas per minute at 1800 rpm. (Correct me if I am wrong)
So, at a 50-50 mix of air and woodgas, that's about 3/8 cu meter of air and 3/8 of a cu meter of woodgas per minute. 3/8 X 60 (minutes) = approx. 22.5 cu meters per hour. I think the spec on MY gasifer says that it is supposed to output about 9 cu meters per hour. So, you can see, I am already pushing its capability.
Regarding the answer about how long the dealer has run an engine from his unit:
I think he is just stating the company's marketing info. Do you think he has actually run an engine from a Stak gasifier himself? Or that he has ever actually seen it done?
Well, I just got a bigger circulating pump for my 30KW generator today.
Now I can start testing that setup for separate control of block temp and the water cooled exhaust manifold (for later use in home heating while I am making electricity). I had been testing that machine with water, but now I can switch to antifreeze, just in time for winter.
Hope I can get back to the JXQ-10 soon. As I said earlier, I have added more pressure sensors so I can better data on the system pressure drop.
I am vacillating on the final location for the reactor zone thermocouple.
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

From: Dave
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:49 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?

Pete,
Here are some of the reply answers about the gasifier/genset system

Q: Do you think is advisable to run the generator with or without the airblower turned on?

A: Dave,
Most of the time it works best without the blower turned on. Engines usually don't like to be "forced fed", and it can make it where the engine cant draw in air. However, I am not sure in your situation because it seems like the engine is being starved of gas. I would try it both ways to see which one works better with your current setup

Q: How long has he run an engine under load, and how much load?

A: The STAK-10K gasifier can run gensets all day long. Our larger gasifiers are used to run engines continually. The STAK-50K and STAK-10K are designed to be mini gasification power plants. The 10K gasifier is recommended for a 10K generator at full output.

From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
To: "'Dave'"
Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2011, 6:18 PM
Hello, Dave.
From my limited experience and from talking to others about the use of wood chips, thicker is better. This means that the thicker the chip is in relationship to its width and length, the better it will work and the less bridging will occur.

A guy who is in the business for his day job told us that the "ideal" wood fuel is what he calls a "fat Oreo cookie" of wood. I have made up 3 5 gallon pails of them to test, but haven't gotten to it yet. I went out in the woods and found several fallen tree branches that varied from about 1 1/2" in diameter to about 2 1/4" diameter. I sawed them into "cookies" about 3/8" to maybe 5/8" thick. They sure do "pour" well.

Questions for the dealer?
1. How long has he run an engine under load, and how much load?
2. What is he using for a final filter? I contacted the Stak Properties people several months ago to ask about filtering and they said that they used either furnace filter material or fiberglass batt in that box where you put the corn cobs. How well does that work?
I tried both corn cobs and activated charcoal in that filter area with poor results. Too much of the gas can get around the pieces of corn cob or the pieces of charcoal. By the way, on my gasifier filter, the bottom of that filter chamber is sheet metal with 1/2" holes in it. I was afraid that chunks of my filter material would drop through and either catch on the baffles, or fall into the filtering water below. So I covered the bottom of that chamber with metal window screen.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

From: Dave
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 5:20 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Fw: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?

I have attached the pic of my latest wood chip configuration.
The chips are in a 5 gal Home Depot pail Are there any questions you would like for me to ask the dealer regarding the wood gasifier?
Regards,
Dave

From: Dave
Subject: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
To: "Pete & Sheri"
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 12:50 PM
Pete,
Yes I saw your video on you-tube. And yes you caught my boo boo. As it turns out, I used chunked wood in the initial run and I was wondering why the paint was charring off of the reactor.

I talked to the dealer who has one of these and he said that the best material is well dried wood chips. I went to a local hardware store and bought a 5 lb bag of flavoring chips (apple wood) I knew that the material would be bone dry. After about 4 minutes the Gas was flowing out of the 1" flare pipe as you can see from the video the flame was enormous. After seeing that this chip size worked well, I ran my wood chunks through my chipper and produced a reasonable input material. (I re-painted the reactor, BTW)
Also, I have since reduced the pipe to 3/4 inch and installed a ball valve which I can throttle down to allow a self sustaining flare. I also added a hydro-cyclone to eliminate the condensate from the gas mixture. The filter box believe it or not holds corn cobs to catch the cooled tar vapors. The cobs can then be shredded for another go round in the process.

The engine I am using is a B&S on a 5kw propane gen-set. The conversion is as simple as putting a tee in after the propane regulator. With a few ball valves I was able to run the generator but I haven't had a chance to test it under load yet as I just got my electrical power back on from the nor'easter here in CT. I can risk experimenting with this generator once my new generator arrives. I only use the generator to charge my 24 volt battery bank for about 3 hours per day and run off my inverters when not on gen power. (I ran the engine with the reactor blower unit on)

My biggest concern is the scrubber fluid which gets pretty nasty. I was told to use a pump sprayer to "enhance" the calorific value of my wood pile. A friend of mine is a chemist and knows a few ways to covert the liquid to a usable gas fuel. He thinks that most of the wood energy is stored in the scrubber fluid. The char is also an untapped energy resource.

The dealer states that the 10K is properly sized for a full rated 10K generator. I will send some pictures of the chips that I am now using as soon as I get home this evening with my camera.
Developing,
Dave
------------------------------

From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
To: "'Dave'"
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 9:45 AM
Hi, Dan.
Thank you for writing and sending your video links.
To answer your question, I have fed my JXQ-10 into a 6.5 KW Onan generator. Getting the engine to run is one thing, but getting it to produce power is a different story, for me, at least.
Did you see my youtube video of the system producing about 3.9KW for a short time?
I am still not satisfied that my gas producer can put out engine quality gas for an extended period. I am (slowly) in the process of adding more instrumentation so I can better see what's going on inside. 2 monometers and a thermocouple for the reactor zone.
If the gas contains any tar, then the valves will stick and the engine oil will be quickly contaminated, so that is of major importance.
Does the Stak 10K "gurgle" when it is running?

I notice that you had to hold the torch in place to keep the gas lit. And, there's quite a bit of water vapor in the gas stream. That should be a concern. When I run my system, once most of the visible "smoke" goes away, the gas stays lit. On the engine test runs that I did, when the engine quit running well and I reverted to using the "flare", the gas had gotten "smoky" again. A lot of that "smoke", is actually water vapor, I think.
I have not proven it yet, but I think it is very important to keep the temperature of the water in the tank cool.
If I were you, I'd keep close contact with the STAK-10K people, feeding them back the results of every test and asking for assistance. With my JXQ-10, there is nobody to ask.

I see that you, too have burned the paint off the bottom of your reactor. As I am sure you know by now, that is a boo-boo. It means that some fuel or char fell through the grate and ignited there. That area shouldn't get to over a few hundred degrees, in my opinion. If also means that air (oxygen) had gotten through the reaction area for the material to ignite. As I am sure you know, that is usually due to bridging, which is a constant problem. What are you using for fuel?

I am corresponding with people from Senegal currently and they are having similar problems in getting reliable gas for extended periods.

I understand that the STAK 10K uses filters in the upper right hand box. How clean are they? How long do they last? Do they get wet?
It would be be great to correspond more as our experiences continue,
Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:53 AM
To: spaco
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Any experience with Stak Properties 10K gasifier?
Pete,
I was reading some posts for the Stak 10K and was wondering if you had sucess with running an engine to your satisfaction? I purchased a 10K about 3 weeks ago and still can't believe how much gas that thing puts out.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa474/goldtinkerer/?action=view&current=Woodgas001.mp4
Engine
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa474/goldtinkerer/?action=view&current=Woodgas_Eng.mp4
Best Regards,
Dave in CT

=============================================================
Begin Rich, who is thinking about a JXQ-10 to run an engine:
==============================================================
Hello, Rich.
You wrote:
I'm thinking about buying a jxq-10a not much info about them out there, knowing what you know now would you buy one or build it yourself?
Pete's Answer:
If you want to use it to run an engine, I wouldn't use that design.
First, it isn't a true "Imbert" style gas producer. I'm not done testing yet, but I don't think the reactor gets hot enough to burn the tars that form and that's why they have the wet filter system.
Second, I don't remember if it shows in the video, but when the system is running, there is a constant gurgling sound down at the lower right of the filter. I think this is coming from the filter water as it covers and then uncovers one of the chambers. This would mean, I think, that the gas filtering is being compromised consistently.
When used as intended, that is, to power the 2 burner stove that comes with it, it probably works pretty well. But we folks who are trying to run engines are simply pulling too much gas out of it, I think.

I bought mine just before the allpowerlabs GEK became available, and because I saw them cheap on Ebay and I wanted to "get started" any way I could.
If your power requirements are range of the GEK, I think that's the one to get. Although you can still buy kits at a couple of levels, they seem to have discontinued the basic $800 kit. But, they have all the CAD drawings you need to build one yourself from scratch and the drawings are free.
Pete Stanaitis

====================================
Begin Christophe:
====================================
Hello,
The machine on http://www.allpowerlabs.org/gasification/ is nice, interresting...but expensive 25 000 $...
So we will continue to work with JXQ10 as base. Now we'd like to find how we can make the ash out and biomass in automaticaly.
I will send you more information on our work. Please send us yours.
C.Chesneau
De: Pete & Sheri
Objet: RE: JXQ-10
"'Christophe Chesneau'"
Date: Samedi 22 octobre 2011, 18h06
Do you know about the website:
http://www.allpowerlabs.org/gasification/

These people have the machine that you are looking for. Especially for cogneration. It has automatic controls.
Yes, it is more costly than the JXQ-10.
They also have much information about building, using and automating the machinery. They even have CAD drawing of all of their components
That you can download for no cost.
Pete Stanaitis
------------------

From: Christophe Chesneau
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 1:24 AM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re : JXQ-10
Many thanks, we will continue exchange.
Actually we also tried the gasifier with rice husk but the gas is not as blue as with wood and the reaction is not stable.
Also can you have a solution to get gas for 2 hours for exemple we just add material, but in the same time we have to take out ash... can not have a solution more automatic...
Actually I also think to use the system in France for heating system in house and small cogeneration. We can use wood chips or pellets but the system shoul be automatic.
Actually, when you'll be advance to run engine, we may be interrested to inveted you in Senegal... for training, is it possible for you ?
Thanks for contact.
C.Chesneau
------------------

De: Pete & Sheri
Objet: JXQ-10
c_chesneau@yahoo.fr
Date: Mercredi 19 octobre 2011, 19h16
You wrote:
I have a JXQ10 since couple of month in Senegal.We are now learning to use it and I happy to find your web site ! please contact me to exchange, we actually need many information to use it.

I will continue to update my website as I make changes and progress.
It is important to know the pressure drop across the reactor, so you need a manometer sensing the pressure just below the grate. Once you get good gas coming from the system, take note of the (negative) pressure. If the reading increases, it means that the reactor is plugging up. If the pressure decreases, it means that the fuel has "bridged" in the hopper and is not falling into the pyrolysis zone.
It is also important to know the temperature at the hottest part of the reactor. I think you need a temperature of about 1300 degrees F to burn tars. It is vital to burn tars as they are formed, especially if you are going to use the gas to run an engine.
I also want to know the pressure drop across the filter box, to see if the filter system is plugging up. In the next week or two, I will run a test with these new measurement tools in place.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

=======================================
Begin Howard:
=======================================
Hello, Howard.
You wrote:
Hello Pete, I am going to try to replicate your woodgas system. The GEK systems are out of my price range. I am going to get a JXQ-10A like yours. What would you recommend getting to go with it other than the cyclone kit? I appreciate any help you can give us. Thank You
Pete's Answer:
I think one should add a final filter to make sure that NO tar gets into the engine. I have a partially made filter that is a metal 5 gallon pail with a tight fitting lid. It will be filled with shredded wood, like narrow planer shavings. It will connect to the output of the cyclone separator. But I don't know how much of a restriction that will place on the system as I have not installed it yet. It has a mesh platform about an inch from the bottom and another platform about an inch from the top to contain the shredded wood so it can't be sucked into the system.
Some guys have used fiberglass insulation for this. It works, from what I hear, but once it is contaminated, it is just about impossible to clean. I hope that I can simply toss the contaminated wood shreds into the gasifier and burn them up.
If you are thinking of getting a cyclone kit from the GEK people, look closely at what they have for a filter. One needs a manometer and some fittings to measure pressure drop at various points. I am also waiting for a stainless steel sheathed thermocouple so I can measure reactor temperature.
I wish I had more firm data to share.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

====================================
Begin Tom Diesel:
=====================================
Thanks, Tom.
I got the picture.
I am thinking that I need some sort of transparent "box" that would have a piece of white filter paper in it so I can see if any tar is getting to the engine.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------------------------
From: thomas mcdaniel
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:20 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: JXQ-10

From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: JXQ-10
To: "'thomas mcdaniel'"
Date: Thursday, August 11, 2011, 10:17 AM

Hi, Tom.
Thanks for the report. No, I have not gotten any pictures yet.
Are you flaring your gas or are you running an engine?
If you are running an engine, how much load are you putting on it?
For some reason I was assuming that you had a JXQ-10 gasifier, but it sounds like you have one that you built. Is that correct? You sure are getting a lot longer run than I have gotten so far.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------------------

Hi Pete
I ran many tests this week here is what i found
i put a 4" restricter plate in and left the lid open, That seemed to help the gas quality it ran 4 hrs with good gas but after about 4.5 the entire unit was plugged with charcoal so i tried a sort of imbert stratified combo.
I have pics to send but my internet is bad today.
Did you get the pics i sent last week?
On the milk churn i put a piece of pipe with a metal disk at the bottom of the pipe.
Then i put it in a stainless bowl.
that seemed to cut the char by 2/3s i need to test again
I used pellets for the test because i didn't get any chips made and the pellets i thought would be more uniform in weight and water
I'll send the pics and let you draw you own conclusions because i may not have seen all that went on
I had to clean my cooler i think the tar came from early tests
If you got my first pics the plate on the cooler covers a cleanout hole
glad to hear any thoughts you have
thanks
Tom

hi pete
here is just one pic if it comes thru i send them one at a time
Note: The picture did not come through.

tom

=====================
Begin hindletloose:
=====================
-----Original Message-----
From: hindletloose
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:19 AM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: Your contact to spaco.org
Sorry about that.
No problem.

I bought a gasifier.
Did you buy the JXQ-10?
----------------------------
In your posts you mention a cyclone. Did you make or purchase that?
Pete's answer:
I made it. I used the design from http://gekgasifier.com/wood-gasifier-plans/
Warning: If you go to this website, be prepared for a long visit. It is crammed with the info you need!
In the "GEK" (Gasifier Expirementer's Kit) they connect that cyclone right at the hot gas outlet, I think. I reasoned that the same design might work okay at the cool output of my JXQ-10 filter.
--------------------------------------------------
I have read that it is necessary to adjust the timing(retard?) on the engine to get it to run.
Pete's Answer:
It would probably be a good idea to do so, but I haven't had any trouble getting my Onan NH6.5 to start and run with the "stock" timing. It might be that the engine running at 1800 rpms is more forgiving. Also, adjusting the timing on these engines is a little tricky, so I decided to leave the timing alone until later in the game. Besides, this way, I can run on gasoline or woodgas by just turning the gasoline on or off.
-------------------------------------------------------
Are you satisfied with wood chips for a filter medium?
Pete's Answer:
I don't know enough about this yet. So far, I am only using charcoal as a filter in the JXQ-10's filter chamber. I am pretty sure that this isn't the way to go. On the Stakproperties website, they recommend using folded up fiberglass in that compartment. I may go with that.
As I mention somewhere on my website, I have started to build a 5 gallon-pail final filter using shredded wood, but I haven't actually added it to the system yet. I still need a good way to seal the pail. But, I also needed to add some vacuum sensing, so I just yesterday hooked up a double U-tube manometer so I can see how much pressure drop I have at various stages in the system.
---------------------------------------------
In the test run I didn't see a water hookup or a reservoir.

Pete's answer:
I have revised my main JXQ-10 page since you last looked, I think.
This should make it easier to find the CAD drawings that I made of the reactor and the filter box. Look at these and read the text.
There is cooling water stored in the left hand tank, and there is water in the bottom 3 or 4 inches of the rest of filter that is used to extract soot, tar, etc.
Normally, I guess, one would feed flowing, cool water into the left hand tank to keep it cook as it extracts the heat from the hot woodgas. This time, I tried leaving it full of water and letting the temp go up as the run progressed. Looking back, this was a bad idea, even though the instructions suggested the it might work.
I think the water temp got up to about 150 degrees F, which allowed 'way too much water vapor to into the final gas stream.
I don't think the cyclone separator was capable of trapping all of it.

-------------------------------
What is the longest period you have run it?

Pete's answer:
About one hour total. On the day of the run that is on the video, the engine was running with some or no load and the rest of the time was spent trying to get consistently good gas.
The next day, I ran for another hour and actually got worse results. But I now know of about a dozen things that I want to do differently next time, many of which I have mentioned above.
----------------------------------------------------- Anything I missed?

Pete's answer;
All I can say is to reread my webpage and go to the gek gasifier site.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

===================================
More Tom Diesel:
====================================
Hi, Tom. My reactor necks down to 5 inches, then opens back up to 9.6 inches just above the grate. So, yes, it does have a restriction.
I just added this drawing to show it. It was done in Turbocad and this is the best .jpg I could get:
http://www.spaco.org/Woodgas/ChinaGasifierGasifier2.jpg
Let me know if you need more info.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

From: thomas mcdaniel
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 8:32 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: JXQ-10
hi Pete
I forgot to ask you last time does your gasifier have a restriction in it?
I see drawings showing a 3" throat but mine starts out about 14" and then necks down to 9 1/2" to the grate I may need to adress this i'm going to run some more tests this weekend
thanks
Tom
-------------------------------------------
Hi pete
don't mean to bug you but i had today off so i just did a 4hr run, it did much better i'm not sure why i left the lid open 1" on one side sloping to the hinge.
I also had to leave the fan running. With low load (500 watts) it didn't pull enough thru the reactor it only pulls about half as much as the fan.
i think you were right about the water scrubber; i am going put another tap on the left tank and do away with the water bath for my next run
also accurate temps on the cooler:
-Enters the rad at 145f leaves96-100f
anyway thats the way it seems to be so next week i'll run some more tests
thanks
tom
-----------------------------
From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: RE: JXQ-10
To: "'thomas mcdaniel'"
Date: Monday, August 1, 2011, 11:17 AM
Hi, again, Tom
Thanks for the cooling info.
Have you checked to see how much temp drop you get with the radiator(s)? I was thinking of doing that also, but for the next run, I will use well water to make sure that the left tank stays about 70 degrees F. (or as cool as I can get, while I try to solve other issues). I have had a couple of different responses from mechanics about how much temp drop one can expect from a car radiator (in a car). One guy says you can only get about a 20 degrees F drop and the other guy says 40-50 degrees F drop. I haven't measured for myself yet.
A guy told me a while ago that he uses a feed auger to "drizzle" the wood chips in to the reactor just as they are needed, to avoid bridging. But I think you are talking about scraping the top of the grate, right?
I do a fair amount of blacksmithing with a coal forge. We regularly make clinkers, since we actually melt the ash.
But I don't see any clinker at the grate so far. Does this mean I am not getting hot enough?
I guess I also need to add a thermocouple just under the grate to get more data.
Pete Stanaitiis
-------------------

From: thomas mcdaniel [mailto:tomdiesel1@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 10:45 AM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: JXQ-10

Hi Pete
My gen is an 11hp koller running a 5hp 3phase motor I separated the leads and put the cap on the inside coils so i can start motors without the gen stopping.
I was useing wood chips and i think they drew dampness for when i opened the lid today there was water dripping from the lid ring.
I like locust chunks it seems they are so hard that they dry really quick.
I also made sort of a milk churn to go on my grate its a 3ft by 1/2" rod with 4 - 4" spikes on it I can wiggle it or put a wrench on it and rotate if the grate gets plugged.
I also saw water vapor in my flare when the engine quit.
Thanks so much for the reply
I'll let you know how things go

ps:
my cooling water is pumped through a car rad with a window fan which also cools another rad for my secondary condenser then i run the gas thru a 16 gal drum filled with fiber glass with a drain on the bottom
thanks
Tom
--------------------------------
From: Pete & Sheri
Subject: JXQ-10
To: tomdiesel
Date: Monday, August 1, 2011, 8:17 AM
Hello, Tom
You wrote:
hi::i have a jqx10 hooked to an induction after about 2 hours my gas quality goes bad i don't know if the wood chips are to wet or something else is going on do you have any pressure gauges on your unit?::thanks Tom McDaniel

Pete's reply:
I am at about the same point with my setup.
How are you keeping your filter water cool? I think that, as soon as that water in either tank heats up (the tank closest to the reactor or the "bottom" tank), then the water from the bottom tank adds too much humidity to the air going to the engine.

The next time I run mine, I will use a flow of cold water in the left tank to keep things as cool as I can get them. So far, when my engine won't run well and I shut it off and try the flare, I can see that the flare won't keep going continuously--- no surprise there!.
But, I also see that the flare has some amount of water vapor that wasn't in it when I first started running.
Also, for my next run, I have made about 45 pounds of wood rounds that are about the size of fat Oreo cookies to use as fuel. One guy told me that those are the ideal fuel, so I thought I'd try them while I sort out the other issues.

Gages:
If you look closely at my gasifier pages, you can see a U-tube manometer connected between the center and right hand tanks on the filter. I wanted to see how much suction I get between the two. I also have a pressure gage (9-10 inches of water at the output of the filter. That one was somewhat useful when I was just flaring the gas or running the stove. But, I have now found that I need to measure the pressure drop across the reactor, so I have a double U-tube manometer that I will use next time.
One U-tube will be connected to the bottom side of the reactor, so it will measure the difference between atmosphere and the lower side of the reactor. I assume that, once I establish a pressure drop when the gas is good, I can use the gage to tell me when the reactor gets plugged, or if it has bridging.
The other U-tube will measure the drop across the whole filter box.
I also need a regular automobile type of vacuum gage in the intake manifold. I just haven't taken the time to drill and tap a hole.
If you want to see the manometer described above, go to www.allpowerlabs.com and look around their great website.
You didn't say how big your induction generator setup is. I am concerned that we may be drawing more gas than the JXQ-10 filter system can handle. The best I have done is to get good gas for producing 3.9kw for about 12 minutes before I run into similar problems.
Feel free to ask any other questions. I'd also appreciate hearing any successes you have.
Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

=======================
Begin David S.:
=======================
Hello, David.
From: David Siedschlag
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 6:03 PM
To: 'Pete & Sheri'
Subject: RE: [WoodGas] JXQ-10 Looking for others who use them
Pete,
I have my gasifier mostly done. I have to build a cyclone yet as well as a filter.

Pete's reply;
---I used the plans and dimensions from the allpowerlabs.com website for my cyclone separator.

The filter for the JXQ looks interesting, except the water part would be hard to deal with in the winter.

Pete's Reply:
---Yes, winter would be an issue. The tank on the left side of the filter could be filled with antifreeze, using a radiator and fan to keep it cool, but the water compartment at the bottom would be another issue, I guess you'd have to fill it each day and drain it when done. That water gets pretty cruddy. They tell me that it's best to evaporate that water and then toss the residue in the garbage.

Where did you buy your unit from?

Pete's reply:
---I got mine on Ebay, from a guy in the Seattle area, but I don't think he is selling them anymore.
---There are two places that I know of that currently import them in North America:
Wattpower.com
And
Stakproperties.com

I also have been shopping for a generator. I have some 3phase motors here, and I know you can use them but I'm not sure how, and I have not studied into it yet.

Pete's reply:
--- The first generator I made was from a 12hp Briggs running at about 2300 rpms, driving a 5HP 3 phase motor at 1750 rpms. I could get about 2-3KW out of it. The Briggs still has governor issues, so I stopped testing it a while ago. I still don't know a lot about making power this way, but I have put significant time into that project and it is here to see if you come. There is also a nice book written about 3 phase induction motors for single phase power. I have a copy that, too.

Saturday was a fun time with Mike LaRosa. We took a drive in his truck for about 11 miles all on wood. His latest gasifier ran real well. It is amazing how simple he builds things.

Pete's reply:
--- I think that name rings a bell. Where does he live?
Pete Stanaitis
----------------

---------------------------------
From: David Siedschlag
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 7:04 AM
To: spaco
Subject: RE: [WoodGas] JXQ-10 Looking for others who use them

From: WoodGas yahoogroups On Behalf Of frenchcreekhome
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 12:26 AM
To: WoodGas
Subject: [WoodGas] JXQ-10 Looking for others who use them

Pete,
Where in central Wisconsin are you? I am by Beaver Dam. I would be interested in stopping by. I am on the same path as you wanting to run a generator only I am building my own unit. I am on my way out the door today to spend the day with Mike LaRosa. Give me a call so we can hook up sometime.
David
920-210-1233
Pete's reply:
I bought a JXQ-10(D) in early 2009. I made a test run shortly after I got it, with mixed results on a cold, windy April day in central Wisconsin. I didn't run it again until a week or so ago. During the intervening time, I did a fair amount of reading and question asking. I also began gathering generator sets and looking for grid connection controllers in the 50 to 75 kw range.
I have used the JXQ-10 to fuel an Onan 6.5KW genset for two tests so far and have already learned a lot.
I posted a 10 minute youtube video about one of the runs a few days ago. It's at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZri_XBdifc

If you have one of these gasifiers, I sure would like to hear from you.
My full intention is to use this gasifier to fuel engines. And to see just how much power I can get out of it on a sustained basis.
I am posting this request in as many places as I can to get contacts so we can work together.
More tests are planned. I have a lot of data already and I have also gotten some good feedback from others who have answered my plea.
These tests will most certainly lead up to a bigger gasifier eventually. But I want to learn as much as I possibly can from this one.
feel free to email me off list at: spaco@baldwin-telecom.net
Pete Stanaitis
--------------

==============================
Begin Jason:
==============================
Hello, again, Jason.
Thanks for the pricing info.
I am going to add a few comments into your reply below.

From: Lambert, Jason
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:12 AM
To: 'Pete & Sheri'
Subject: RE: Tian Tian JXQ-10A Gasifier

They are asking $1400 plus shipping to a port. I think it's a fair price considering it's a ready to use product.

Pete's reply:
It cost me $175 to ship my unit from a west coast port to central Wisconsin. I drove 60 miles to pick it up.

I have emailed them to see what CFM blower is used as I would rather use a 12v blower that I could power off a battery but they suggested a 12volt to 110 inverter then a 110 -220 inverter.

Pete's reply:
I think they did that because that blower is rather unique, in that it pulls a lot more pressure. Check my webpages again. I think I have some numbers. Most blowers that you can buy have a lot more "slippage" and so, can't provide the pressure/vacuum you will need. Remember that you will need even more pressure to run your output appliance.
Go to www.allpowerlabs.com and read all you can about their trials and tribulations in trying to find blowers that will work.

Talk about inefficiency issues. My other option is once I get one, to have the blower tested then purchase one with similar performance. I figure I will need one that will do at least 2 inches of static pressure since it is pulling smoke through water to clean it. Otherwise it might not have the pulling power needed.

Pete's reply:
See note, above.
You will also need the suction to pull the incoming air through the fuel.

Another thing I am running into is that most DC blowers are made of high impact plastic so there max operating temp is around 130 Fahrenheit. I'm thinking that I need allot higher operating temp as I have heard the cracking temp of tar is around 1000. I know the water will not cool the gases off 870 degrees :

Pete's reply:
Yes, the water WILL cool that gas significantly. During my most recent tests, even when I was not using flowing water to cool the left hand tank, the gas temperature going into the engine was only about 110 degrees F. The left tank got up to about 150 degrees F toward the end of a one hour test.

. It looks like a great project and I can't wait to get started as soon as the finances allow.

Thanks for your help with the endeavor. It's great that you spend time educating people as well as using the product.

Pete's reply:
You are welcome,
Pete Stanaitis
-------------------

-----------------------------------------------------
Yes, it is designed to be run with the lid on. That one inch diameter hole is plenty big enough for a "roaring good" fire when the blower is sucking air through the system. I even ran it with the lid on when I was running the engine. The lid is a close fit, but not a perfect fit, by the way, so some air does get sucked in that way.
A point I want to make: If I opened this door with the engine running, I noticed NO change in the sound or power output of the engine. I guess that means that the hole in that intake pipe is big enough to do the job.
What price are the wattpower folks asking for one these days?

------------------------------
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------
From: Lambert, Jason [mailto:Jason.Lambert@Level3.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:20 PM
To: 'Pete & Sheri'
Subject: RE: Tian Tian JXQ-10A Gasifier
I believe I see how this thing works. I was able to get a hold of someone from wattpower and the price is very reasonable.
Thanks so much for the information.
Looking at the below picture it looks as though the unit is ran with the lid on and the air goes through this small tube. IS this designed to just allow the fire to smolder?
Thanks
------------------------------------------
From: Pete & Sheri
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 7:53 PM
To: Lambert, Jason
Subject: RE: Tian Tian JXQ-10A Gasifier

Hello, Jason
Thank you for your comments.
Here are two places to buy these machines:
Wattpower.com
And
Stakproperties.com

The cad drawings are here:
http://www.spaco.org/Woodgas/CGF.jpg
Thanks for your interest,
Pete Stanaitis
-----------------
From: Lambert, Jason [mailto:Jason.Lambert@Level3.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 1:04 PM
To: 'spaco@baldwin-telecom.net'
Subject: Tian Tian JXQ-10A Gasifier

I came across your site and read all the information on the gasifier. However I can't find one on eBay and am interested in some more information. Can you provide any more info including the CAD drawling you talked about on the website.

Thanks for the great review and video. What an awesome product.
Thanks
Jason Lambert

==========================================
Begin Kevin:
==========================================
Hi, Kevin.
Comments below.

From: Kevin
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 1:07 PM
To: Pete & Sheri
Subject: Re: Gasification, about Ben Peterson pellets
Are you the guy who used to import the JXQ-10?

# Yes. :-)
Then you are one of the guys I really need to communicate with.
Have you run engines from your gasifiers, or do you know anyone who has?
I'd like to trade experiences.

What's the max power you could get reliably? I think the spec for the JXQ-10 says output of 9 cu meters /hr. Can it do more?

My novice calc's indicate that the 9cu mtrs/hr would be only about 1/3 of the 6.5Kw that my generator would need. And that does not include the overhead power it takes to run the engine/generator.
It seems to me that the "regulator" part (the lower right hand corner of the filter) may be a limiting factor, since the water level changes with engine vacuum. What have you found?

Have you added any instrumentation to your machines?

Is there a "user group" for the JXQ-10?

Have you seen my webpages on it, and, if so, would you care to comment?
http://www.spaco.org/JXQ10A.htm

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

====================
Begin Wayne:
====================
Hello, Wayne.
Do you mean gasifiers sold by Stak Properties?
If so, I didn't know they had a 20K model. I am only aware of the 10K, 50K and 100K units.
My only direct experience, as you probably know, is with a gasifier that is pretty much similar to their 10K unit.
My unit is a JXQ-10D. The people at Stak Properties told me that there 10K is better than my unit, but I don't know any details.
I can't see any differences. Maybe its because I thought mine was -10A.
I just found the model number tag last week and it says -10D. And mine is a lot different from the -10A diagrams that you can find on the web.
No, I haven't seen the video. Please send me a link.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne hipkin
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:59 AM
To: spaco
Subject: hi
am look n into the stack 20 KW. good to hear any info gd or neg
Have you watched the video on 20KW ??
lrg Pellets of straw & POOP
thanks for any input
Wayne

======================================
Begin Pete, this is where it starts:
=======================================
This is the body of an email I sent to the gasification list. I sent similar emails to a couple of other forums dealing with wood gasiification for fueling engines:

Has anyone here had any experience running an engine using the Stak Properties 10K gasifier?

They tell me that the JXQ-10 gasifier is a forerunner to this machine. I have one of those.
I'd like to be able to correspond with others who have this style of machine.
Currently I am having mixed results getting a steady flow of good gas to run my 6.5 KW Onan 1800 rpm genset from it. On Saturday,June 28, 2011, I got it to deliver about 3.8 kw for about 12 minutes, but then the quality of the gas deteriorated.

On Sunday a similar test produced worse results, but over about a one hour period, with gas quality again deteriorating as the test went proceded.

I am not writing to waste the time of senior members here by asking them to troubleshoot my problems, without enough info. Just want to show what kind of issues I have for those who might be involved with similar equipment.

My goals are to:
1. See how much power I can squeeze out of the generator for an extended period of time with this gas source, and
2. To get some actual experience making woodgas.

Looking back over my videos and notes, I can see a dozen or two things that I could do better next time.
Pete Stanaitis
--------------------


The above email is the earliest one that I have saved.